Hey all, today I’d like to share the opening monologue to my latest podcast episode. It’s about internalized misogyny, internalized oppression in general, and yes, TERFs. I’d like to think that it adds something new to the conversation about misogyny, since “internalized” oppression is something that we always seem to gloss over in popular discourse. The episode also features social psychologist Frankie Soldynski (they/them), one of my besties and one of the only people in the world studying internalized misogyny.
This episode was supposed to be released publicly on Friday, but we hit a production snag of sorts. Hopefully it will be out publicly in a few weeks! For now, consider joining my Patreon, where a working version of the episode is posted along with my full interview with Frankie. Or, consider this piece a preview of what’s to come, and check out some of our older episodes while you wait (we’re available on Spotify, YouTube, and Apple Podcasts).
Oh, and an important announcement up top! I’ll be on Mardi Pieronek’s livestream tonight at 5pm central / 8pm eastern. Mardi is a bonified trans elder and her TikTok videos are always a joy to see on my feed. You can watch the livestream on YouTube using this link.
Thanks for reading!
Hot take: it’s a hard time to be a woman right now. Our rights are being systematically stripped away, my country is drifting towards Christo-fascism with no signs of slowing, and millions of men have been emboldened into becoming even more violently sexist by politicians and other public figures who’ve built their public personas around white supremacy and misogyny. God, it’s brutal out here.
But probably most heartbreakingly, a lot of the harm towards women is coming on behalf of other women. Female politicians who enact policies that are harmful to their female constituents, women who police what other women wear or how they behave, and cis women who attack trans women, on both systemic and interpersonal levels. When cis women attack trans people (either trans women, trans men, or non-binary people), they’re often doing so in ways that run counter to the ideas of feminism (the belief in the systemic equality of all genders). What’s even more interesting is that many of the women who are publicly attacking trans people and taking their rights away, self-identity as feminists. (Yeah, I know, I’m so sorry, but we once again have to talk about TERFs, Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminists. I KNOW that they’ve been talked about to death, but it’s not what the WHOLE episode is about, I promise.)
I find TERFs really interesting from a social psychology perspective. Supposedly, as feminists, they believe in women’s liberation. They believe that women shouldn’t be defined by their reproductive capacity. They believe that women shouldn’t be defined by our relationships to men, and that they’re full human beings with rich, internal lives that deserve to be recognized and respected. They believe in an expansive idea of womanhood that encompasses not only femininity but all sorts of gender expression, like generations of butch lesbians before them. They believe that womanhood is an expansive concept that shouldn’t be constrained by patriarchal norms of what a woman “should” be. They believe that women can be just as strong and just as smart as men.
But then, when trans women get brought up, a switch gets flipped. They launch into talking points about how being a woman is about your reproductive capacity, that the trauma that from experiencing sexism from men is what it means to be a woman, they mock any of our features or presentational styles that could be called “masculine”, and they might even say that males are inherently stronger/smarter than females, all as justification for keeping trans women and cis women separate. What’s going on here? Can they really believe these things and call themselves feminists? Do they actually believe all of these things simultaneously?
TERFs are also known for delegitimizing trans masculine people (and other non-binary people who were assigned female at birth and choose to transition), calling them their “lost lesbian sisters”, claiming that they’re “just trying to escape sexism”, or insisting that womanhood is an expansive enough concept that they shouldn’t have to identify as a different gender. This is all, of course, infantilizing, insisting that these people can’t know what they want because they’re confused girls. In other words, it’s misogyny, enacted by women onto people they perceive as women. (So much for “escaping sexism”.)
There’s this cognitive dissonance that takes place in the minds of TERFs that I wanted to dive deeper into, because 1) I haven’t seen a ton of discussion in this area other than conjecture by other trans people, and 2) because I think it can teach us a lot about how marginalized communities can act in ways that are to their own detriment. Internalized misogyny, or the ways that women can themselves perpetuate the harms of patriarchy onto themselves or other women, is the key culprit here. In order for TERFs to apply these misogynistic notions of femininity and womanhood onto trans people, they need to hold misogynistic views of women within themselves. TERFs often accuse trans women of being men, especially when individual trans women do exhibit behaviors that are aligned with patriarchal norms, like presenting overly feminine or talking down to other women. And without a doubt, there are some trans women who are misogynistic from time to time. But, when TERFs claim that a trans woman is being sexist, they do this is a proxy for calling us men, rather than recognizing that all women, including cis women can be sexist themselves.
What is internalized misogyny? How and why does it have so much staying power? When trans women are being sexist, is that internalized misogyny or just regular misogyny? And how much of TERF ideology is rooted in internalized misogyny?
Here at Rule 63, we try to advance trans discourse beyond the “trans 101” and understand the complexities of systemic oppression around gender issues. We all know, on some level, that women can indeed be sexist. But for some reason, in our popular discourse, the concept of “internalized oppression” vanishes as quickly as it’s mentioned. Yes, patriarchy, white supremacy, colonialism, etc. are all violent, outside forces that we, as marginalized people, did not invent. But sometimes, the call is coming from inside the house, and it’s our responsibility to unpack what makes us reproduce these violent forces, and to call in our community members who are being harmful.
In this episode, I want to try to understand misogyny in cis women, from as much of a sympathetic and pro-trans approach as I can. Luckily, I know just the person who can help me… [At this point I play a clip of Frankie speaking.] Frankie Soldynski is a double-masters, fourth year PhD who’s done research broadly looking at social influences on individual decision-making. Their work focuses on the physiological manifestations of cognitive dissonance, and recently they've been using internalized misogyny as that vehicle. In fact, they’re one of the only researchers in the world studying internalized misogyny in women. Frankie and I had an amazing conversation about their research, what internalized misogyny is, how this concept can be applied to other marginalized groups, and what can be done to resolve this missing piece in our discourse. Together, maybe we can get to the bottom of this.
So! Without further adieu, my name is Anna Marie, PhD, and welcome to Rule 63!
Currently Reading
I cannot lie; mostly I’ve been reading about process dynamics & control this week. I’ve finally started to sink my teeth into the course that I’m teaching this Fall, and so all I can think about is controllers. Much of process control is intuitive and can be explained in simple terms, such as your home heating system or cruise control. The trick is teaching students the “behind the scenes” stuff; the ins and outs of algorithm tuning, Laplace transforms, etc. I probably won’t bore you with the details in this newsletter…probably…
Watch History
Mike Rugnetta, one of the all-time greatest content creators (although he would despise the term), occasionally pops back in for a new video essay. This time, he discusses how the social media landscape has shifted from a place where you “share” your life to a place where you “enact” your life.
Foreign Man in a Foreign Land and oliSUNvia’s joint collab about Asiaphobia in the Black Community and how the Asian “Model Minority” perpetuates anti-Blackness are a great example of inter-community dialog. Both are worth the watch!
Bops, Vibes, & Jams
Yes, I’m in the asexual community. Yes, I’m obsessed with fetish rapper Tommy Genesis. WE EXIST!!
And now, your weekly Koko.
That’s all for now! See you next week with more sweet, sweet content.
In solidarity,
-Anna